Things you fecken hate..........

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Jake
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Re: Things you fecken hate..........

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8088 wrote: 18 Oct 2021, 14:07
You seem to have got very agitated as soon as I simply asked for reasons for your advocacy of Biden over Trump - it's not about putting forward a case - you have your preference and I asked why.

Your response thus far falls in line with the usual 'orange man bad' line of defense - ie none, other than a vague silliness about far right groups and the Ku Klux Klan.

Your assumption that things would've been different if left wing groups got out of hand is bizarre - Antifa and BLM have been wreaking mayhem in the states since the George Floyd incident, and yes, they've directly attacked police stations, courts and government buildings, they've burnt neighbourhoods to the ground, murdered and terrorised people trying to pursue their normal lives.

You probably haven't noticed though because it's not in the UK papers or on the BBC and after all, Joe Biden told us "Antifa doesn't exist."

EDIT: Actually the BBC did cover one Antifa riot - it was the one where a group of MAGA supporters turned up and gave them a pasting - for some reason, that one was newsworthy - I wonder why?

Oh no not the nasty Bolshevik BBC. Well maybe your sources of news are not exactly impartial either? Believe you me, I am no fan of many other false narratives perpetuated by the BBC, at many times I have thought about ending my license subscription.

You are just assuming that I am choosing one side over another which I am not by the way, however it was inevitable after the way that George Floyd was murdered by the Police there was going to be some kind of backlash. Whatever kind of a person George Floyd may or may not have been it’s absolutely sickening what the Police did to him. Don’t think for a minute that I am taking the sides of either set of protestors, I’m not.


I don’t see the point in really continuing this line of discussion to be honest, you seem to be very set in your ways, you seem to assume by the way that I am some kind of radical Lefty, well that’s up to you, shall I assume you to be some kind of alt right conspiracy fan by the same token?
You talk about polite debate whilst labelling my preferences as “vague silliness”, which I think is actually quite rude and condescending.

The best thing I can suggest is to agree to disagree, you may feel like a sense of achievement that I really don’t see the point in arguing this to death. What started out with a rightful concern over the Chinese Supersonic missile, is in danger of descending into an impolite disagreement, best not going there. For the record I condemn all forms of political violence, and would always chose the language of peaceful diplomacy, that is something Trump clearly could not fathom, one of the reasons why he was so loathed by so many.
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8088
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Re: Things you fecken hate..........

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Jake wrote: 18 Oct 2021, 14:50
Oh no not the nasty Bolshevik BBC. Well maybe your sources of news are not exactly impartial either? Believe you me, I am no fan of many other false narratives perpetuated by the BBC, at many times I have thought about ending my license subscription.

You are just assuming that I am choosing one side over another which I am not by the way, however it was inevitable after the way that George Floyd was murdered by the Police there was going to be some kind of backlash. Whatever kind of a person George Floyd may or may not have been it’s absolutely sickening what the Police did to him. Don’t think for a minute that I am taking the sides of either set of protestors, I’m not.


I don’t see the point in really continuing this line of discussion to be honest, you seem to be very set in your ways, you seem to assume by the way that I am some kind of radical Lefty, well that’s up to you, shall I assume you to be some kind of alt right conspiracy fan by the same token?
You talk about polite debate whilst labelling my preferences as “vague silliness”, which I think is actually quite rude and condescending.

The best thing I can suggest is to agree to disagree, you may feel like a sense of achievement that I really don’t see the point in arguing this to death. What started out with a rightful concern over the Chinese Supersonic missile, is in danger of descending into an impolite disagreement, best not going there. For the record I condemn all forms of political violence, and would always chose the language of peaceful diplomacy, that is something Trump clearly could not fathom, one of the reasons why he was so loathed by so many.
Impartiality doesn't come into it - something either happened or it didn't - black clad thugs on the rampage brandishing Antifa flags - and the lack of coverage in MSM is pretty black & white.

You are mistaken - I'm not set in my ways, that's specifically why I asked the Biden question - and I've asked it many times to others because I want to learn and know what they know. But I never get an answer - other than but Trump's a racist (or whatever)....

I said vague silliness because that's what it is when we're discussing something easily reducible to the facts of government policies but you use as your defense the Ku Klux Klan and the Proud Boys - I don't think Trump ever made any constitutional policies for the benefit of fringe right wing loonies did he?

The last thing I want is petty argument - there's already enough on here - again, for me this (and other discussions that inevitably go pear shaped) is about learning, not winning an argument.
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Re: Things you fecken hate..........

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Really uncomfortable pants.
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Jake
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Re: Things you fecken hate..........

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8088 wrote: 18 Oct 2021, 15:05

Impartiality doesn't come into it - something either happened or it didn't - black clad thugs on the rampage brandishing Antifa flags - and the lack of coverage in MSM is pretty black & white.

You are mistaken - I'm not set in my ways, that's specifically why I asked the Biden question - and I've asked it many times to others because I want to learn and know what they know. But I never get an answer - other than but Trump's a racist (or whatever)....

I said vague silliness because that's what it is when we're discussing something easily reducible to the facts of government policies but you use as your defense the Ku Klux Klan and the Proud Boys - I don't think Trump ever made any constitutional policies for the benefit of fringe right wing loonies did he?

The last thing I want is petty argument - there's already enough on here - again, for me this (and other discussions that inevitably go pear shaped) is about learning, not winning an argument.
Ok, well I have never claimed that Biden was great, indeed at the beginning of this discussion, and perhaps I should have been clearer, I am particularly depressed and dismayed at the way he instituted the withdrawal from Afghanistan. Eventually the US /NATO should have left Afghanistan, but done so in a way that left a stable system in place, which was always going to be a tall order. Some will say the Taliban offer a stability, but at what cost, the whole thing makes a mockery of the justification for US/NATO intervention in Afghanistan in the first place.


Thankfully Trump couldn’t further the fringe right through constitutional policies as a result of the checks and balances of the system he seemed to have very little knowledge or care for. You know and I know two wrongs don’t make a right, the actions of “Antifa”, don’t justify the thuggery of Trump’s mob do they? I use the term “Antifa” loosely because anyone could call themselves Antifa there is no centralised structure, and I have no doubt there are some real idiots who go around doing things under the “Antifa” label, but I don’t for a minute think they are being bankrolled by George Soros as many on the Right like to believe. Antifa are ideologically Anarchists as far as I understand, hence the lack of any formal structure. I will reiterate there have been a lot of idiotic actions carried out under the “Antifa” label.


And that was supposed to be me saying no more…
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Re: Things you fecken hate..........

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Jake wrote: 18 Oct 2021, 16:10
Thankfully Trump couldn’t further the fringe right through constitutional policies as a result of the checks and balances of the system he seemed to have very little knowledge or care for. You know and I know two wrongs don’t make a right, the actions of “Antifa”, don’t justify the thuggery of Trump’s mob do they? I use the term “Antifa” loosely because anyone could call themselves Antifa there is no centralised structure, and I have no doubt there are some real idiots who go around doing things under the “Antifa” label, but I don’t for a minute think they are being bankrolled by George Soros as many on the Right like to believe. Antifa are ideologically Anarchists as far as I understand, hence the lack of any formal structure. I will reiterate there have been a lot of idiotic actions carried out under the “Antifa” label.


And that was supposed to be me saying no more…
But Trump has zero connection to fringe right wing groups so why would there have been any necessity of checks and balances to prevent him facilitating their promotion?

That's not to say that far right wing crazies don't see him as their hero and saviour but that's entirely different.

We will definitely have to disagree on two wrongs don't make a right point - if Antifa turn up and hurt people who just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, whilst the police operate a hands off policy, then intervention by anybody with the brawn to do so is welcome - how would you feel if it was your parents being threatened and intimidated whilst they dine out?

No, Anifta don't have a centralised structure but they do have regionalised hubs, they are organised and they have local networks - and history tells us, loose rent-a-mobs can be easily utilised for all sorts of ends.

My main beef is that on the few times they do appear in MSM they are championed as the Anti-Fascists they think they are and shown as being the good guys.

EDIT: No, I don't buy the Soros connection either but what is suspicious is when you look at the stats, how many Antifa get arrested then released without charges again and again.
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Re: Things you fecken hate..........

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8088 wrote: 18 Oct 2021, 16:34
We will definitely have to disagree on two wrongs don't make a right point - if Antifa turn up and hurt people who just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, whilst the police operate a hands off policy, then intervention by anybody with the brawn to do so is welcome - how would you feel if it was your parents being threatened and intimidated whilst they dine out?
Right, well again perhaps should have been clearer the two wrongs statement was aimed at the Capital Hill mob, just because some people calling themselves “Antifa” go around behaving like thugs doesn’t justify what the Capital Hill mob did was my point. I was referencing their pathetic action and nothing else. You’ve got me quite confused, because I’m pretty sure that you don’t see the Capital Hill mob as somehow self defence against Antifa, they were after all apparently protesting about their, in my opinion, deluded grievances over an election result. I wasn’t aware that thousands of thugs from all across America descended on the Capital because of a threat posed by “Antifa”.

I’m not particularly close to most of my remaining family, but no I wouldn’t want them caught in the crossfire of any so called “political” violence, no reasonable person would. As I stated anyway I don’t condone such things in any way, shape or form whatsoever.
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Re: Things you fecken hate..........

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Jake wrote: 18 Oct 2021, 17:47
8088 wrote: 18 Oct 2021, 16:34
We will definitely have to disagree on two wrongs don't make a right point - if Antifa turn up and hurt people who just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, whilst the police operate a hands off policy, then intervention by anybody with the brawn to do so is welcome - how would you feel if it was your parents being threatened and intimidated whilst they dine out?
Right, well again perhaps should have been clearer the two wrongs statement was aimed at the Capital Hill mob, just because some people calling themselves “Antifa” go around behaving like thugs doesn’t justify what the Capital Hill mob did was my point. I was referencing their pathetic action and nothing else. You’ve got me quite confused, because I’m pretty sure that you don’t see the Capital Hill mob as somehow self defence against Antifa, they were after all apparently protesting about their, in my opinion, deluded grievances over an election result. I wasn’t aware that thousands of thugs from all across America descended on the Capital because of a threat posed by “Antifa”.

I’m not particularly close to most of my remaining family, but no I wouldn’t want them caught in the crossfire of any so called “political” violence, no reasonable person would. As I stated anyway I don’t condone such things in any way, shape or form whatsoever.
No - crossed wires - not suggesting any Antifa connection with Jan 6th.

The Capitol Hill event could have been prevented, there was prior intelligence and security was forewarned and offered reinforcements - the fact they refused speaks volumes.
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Re: Things you fecken hate..........

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8088 wrote: 18 Oct 2021, 18:04 I wasn’t aware that thousands of thugs from all across America descended on the Capital because of a threat posed by “Antifa”.
Again, a different take I didn't see on MSM - I watched a livestream as it happened on Jan 6th - I didn't see any thugs (though they were there), just ordinary citizens.
I saw them watching from behind the barriers and chastising all the 'idiots' streaming through...until they were caught up in it themselves and ended up joining in.

I'm not condoning, I'm simply observing that the 'mom & pop' crowd I saw never made it onto the news.
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Re: Things you fecken hate..........

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8088 wrote: 18 Oct 2021, 18:04

No - crossed wires - not suggesting any Antifa connection with Jan 6th.

The Capitol Hill event could have been prevented, there was prior intelligence and security was forewarned and offered reinforcements - the fact they refused speaks volumes.
This sounds a bit suspect, but that’s not to say these things don’t happen, by similar reference it’s worth looking at the “Spy Cops” scandal in the UK, where Police officers were for decades going under cover and going way beyond getting information; when they weren’t forming sexual relationships, even fathering children who they had nothing to do with bringing up, they were in the thick of direct action, often being the ring leaders, so anything is possible I guess.
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Re: Things you fecken hate..........

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8088 wrote: 18 Oct 2021, 18:11
I'm not condoning, I'm simply observing that the 'mom & pop' crowd I saw never made it onto the news.
Again, that could apply to virtually any demonstration that turns violent, sadly peaceful protest is not deemed newsworthy, and maybe if the MSM focussed on that a bit more, it would be more helpful, as well as of course those with the political power not ignoring peaceful protest time after time.
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Re: Things you fecken hate..........

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Jake wrote: 18 Oct 2021, 18:18
8088 wrote: 18 Oct 2021, 18:11
I'm not condoning, I'm simply observing that the 'mom & pop' crowd I saw never made it onto the news.
Again, that could apply to virtually any demonstration that turns violent, sadly peaceful protest is not deemed newsworthy, and maybe if the MSM focussed on that a bit more, it would be more helpful, as well as of course those with the political power not ignoring peaceful protest time after time.
Yep - always been like it but more weaponised now.
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Re: Things you fecken hate..........

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I see BMW drivers haven’t changed since I last drove, still utter cunts who think they own the roads and drive like complete and utter fucktards.
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