The Clash vs The Stranglers

[Jake]

Jake, just wanted to say your posts over the past couple of days have been a breath of fresh air. Some really interesting and excellent points made.
Definitely agree on Clash albums being patchy and none that I would say were five stars either, although I like a very large number of Clash songs.
Hope this isn't too cliquey!

Why thank you Mr. Parasite, that’s very kind of you to say.

Oddly enough I played a bit of The Clash after contributing to this discussion, and got quickly annoyed, mostly from Mick Jones lead vocals numbers, I struggle to think of one excellent number other than “Stay Free” Mick sang, I’ve never been able to decide if I like or dislike “Should I Stay or Should I go” though.

[parasiteinblack]

Jake, just wanted to say your posts over the past couple of days have been a breath of fresh air. Some really interesting and excellent points made.
Definitely agree on Clash albums being patchy and none that I would say were five stars either, although I like a very large number of Clash songs.
Hope this isn't too cliquey!

Why thank you Mr. Parasite, that’s very kind of you to say.

Oddly enough I played a bit of The Clash after contributing to this discussion, and got quickly annoyed, mostly from Mick Jones lead vocals numbers, I struggle to think of one excellent number other than “Stay Free” Mick sang, I’ve never been able to decide if I like or dislike “Should I Stay or Should I go” though.

I like a lot of the Mick ones but there's definitely some dodgy stuff, particularly early on. I've always really disliked "1 2 Crush on You" especially. I find it really cringy.
Mick Jones' best work was on Sandinista for my money.

[Jake]

I like a lot of the Mick ones but there's definitely some dodgy stuff, particularly early on. I've always really disliked "1 2 Crush on You" especially. I find it really cringy.
Mick Jones' best work was on Sandinista for my money.

Oh that is a clunker, one I hopefully don’t need to hear again, it was “Police on my back” that made me give up on my Clash random selection earlier, good sentiment, but not so good vocals imo

[parasiteinblack]

I like a lot of the Mick ones but there's definitely some dodgy stuff, particularly early on. I've always really disliked "1 2 Crush on You" especially. I find it really cringy.
Mick Jones' best work was on Sandinista for my money.

Oh that is a clunker, one I hopefully don’t need to hear again, it was “Police on my back” that made me give up on my Clash random selection earlier, good sentiment, but not so good vocals imo

Yes I agree. I remember the first time I listened to Police On My Back as a snotty teenager the day I got Sandanista, it was exciting at the time because I thought it sounded like a "proper" Clash song... That novelty soon wore off though and it's now one I usually skip. I think Somebody Got Murdered is the best Mick one on Sandanista.

[Greatkudu]

Jake, just wanted to say your posts over the past couple of days have been a breath of fresh air. Some really interesting and excellent points made.
Definitely agree on Clash albums being patchy and none that I would say were five stars either, although I like a very large number of Clash songs.
Hope this isn't too cliquey!

Why thank you Mr. Parasite, that’s very kind of you to say.

Oddly enough I played a bit of The Clash after contributing to this discussion, and got quickly annoyed, mostly from Mick Jones lead vocals numbers, I struggle to think of one excellent number other than “Stay Free” Mick sang, I’ve never been able to decide if I like or dislike “Should I Stay or Should I go” though.

Should I stay is a great song IMHO,the Clash fell apart after he was sacked And Topper,Strummer could be a total c.nt, but was a great talent.Lt Kudu.

[Jake]

Yes I agree. I remember the first time I listened to Police On My Back as a snotty teenager the day I got Sandanista, it was exciting at the time because I thought it sounded like a "proper" Clash song... That novelty soon wore off though and it's now one I usually skip. I think Somebody Got Murdered is the best Mick one on Sandanista.

That’s not a bad number actually. I had forgotten Jones did “Supermarket” too which is an ok number. I think Mick’s voice is very whining and mediocre too on the whole. I feel like Jones was trying to sing dead earnest but it never came across so.

Slightly related, I saw the bass guitar Simonon smashed up on the cover of “London Calling” yesterday. It’s a permanent exhibit at the museum of London. I missed the actual London Calling exhibition there, but it’s good to know that in the essence of the spirit of The Clash, Simonon donated this as a permanent exhibit in a free museum. I went with my sister, she asked me how much would it be worth, and I reckon given that London Calling still shifts units, and the album cover really can be regarded as iconic, it would probably fetch a million from a private collector.

Oh and the bass is really impressive, I think Paul was quite stylish and the way he had customised that bass was really cool. It’s a shame there was this huge divide between the stranglers and clash, due to the incident at Dingwalls. I think JJ is big enough to admit he was throwing his toys out the pram, I think being an inexperienced drinker contributed if I remember correctly, but it seems they met a few years back and were both civil to each other

[parasiteinblack]

Yes I agree. I remember the first time I listened to Police On My Back as a snotty teenager the day I got Sandanista, it was exciting at the time because I thought it sounded like a "proper" Clash song... That novelty soon wore off though and it's now one I usually skip. I think Somebody Got Murdered is the best Mick one on Sandanista.

That’s not a bad number actually. I had forgotten Jones did “Supermarket” too which is an ok number. I think Mick’s voice is very whining and mediocre too on the whole. I feel like Jones was trying to sing dead earnest but it never came across so.

Yes it certainly can be a bit whiny, particularly on some of the Big Audio Dynamite stuff I find. Supermarket's not bad, I probably like that one more now than I did years ago. The other one of his I like on Sandanista is "Up In Heaven (Not Only Here)", that's a good tune.

Slightly related, I saw the bass guitar Simonon smashed up on the cover of “London Calling” yesterday. It’s a permanent exhibit at the museum of London. I missed the actual London Calling exhibition there, but it’s good to know that in the essence of the spirit of The Clash, Simonon donated this as a permanent exhibit in a free museum. I went with my sister, she asked me how much would it be worth, and I reckon given that London Calling still shifts units, and the album cover really can be regarded as iconic, it would probably fetch a million from a private collector.

Oh and the bass is really impressive, I think Paul was quite stylish and the way he had customised that bass was really cool. It’s a shame there was this huge divide between the stranglers and clash, due to the incident at Dingwalls. I think JJ is big enough to admit he was throwing his toys out the pram, I think being an inexperienced drinker contributed if I remember correctly, but it seems they met a few years back and were both civil to each other

yes I reckon that would be worth loads! I'll have to have a look next time I'm in London, sounds like something worth seeing.
It is a shame about the divide, but I think considering the success the Stranglers had in the 70s and 80s it probably didn't do too much damage short term at least. I don't know whether a lack of divide would've helped crack the States a bit more or not. I suspect not, I think the Stranglers were probably a bit too British and quirky.

[Jake]

Yes it certainly can be a bit whiny, particularly on some of the Big Audio Dynamite stuff I find. Supermarket's not bad, I probably like that one more now than I did years ago. The other one of his I like on Sandanista is "Up In Heaven (Not Only Here)", that's a good tune.
yes I reckon that would be worth loads! I'll have to have a look next time I'm in London, sounds like something worth seeing.

I’ve never been able to get into BAD, that’s probably because I don’t rate Mick Jones though. I think they had an interest in music that I would probably rate, but I couldn’t bring myself to listening to Mick’s voice unless I really had to

It is a shame about the divide, but I think considering the success the Stranglers had in the 70s and 80s it probably didn't do too much damage short term at least. I don't know whether a lack of divide would've helped crack the States a bit more or not. I suspect not, I think the Stranglers were probably a bit too British and quirky.

I guess the US thing was a lot down to JJs belligerence, he hated America because he was inspired by the likes of Yukio Mishima. Hugh seems a little regretful for having gone along with this. I don’t know as a fact but there was a power dynamic between the two, just as there was between Strummer and Jones. I think, and I could be wrong, but JJ seemed to be driving the stranglers into this sort of Anti American attitude, which sort of scuppered their chances. That said, the stranglers definitely did not have the American sound, whereas The Clash really did, plus The Clash were prepared to really hit the road in the states in a way the stranglers were not. It seems the key to being “Big in America” at that time was to spend huge periods of time on the road there and have an American friendly sound, ironically from The Clash with “I’m so bored of the USA”, but then look at something like “Train In Vain”, which is so American radio sounding

[parasiteinblack]

I guess the US thing was a lot down to JJs belligerence, he hated America because he was inspired by the likes of Yukio Mishima. Hugh seems a little regretful for having gone along with this. I don’t know as a fact but there was a power dynamic between the two, just as there was between Strummer and Jones. I think, and I could be wrong, but JJ seemed to be driving the stranglers into this sort of Anti American attitude, which sort of scuppered their chances. That said, the stranglers definitely did not have the American sound, whereas The Clash really did, plus The Clash were prepared to really hit the road in the states in a way the stranglers were not. It seems the key to being “Big in America” at that time was to spend huge periods of time on the road there and have an American friendly sound, ironically from The Clash with “I’m so bored of the USA”, but then look at something like “Train In Vain”, which is so American radio sounding

Yes that's a good point.
But fair play to JJ on that account because the weird stuff between The Raven and Feline is my favourite and I doubt that would have ended up the same if the first three albums had been really big in America.
I'm not even sure I could name an "american radio" song that the Stranglers recorded during that period! Even the poppier stuff like Strange Little Girl I can't imagine rubbing shoulders with the american pop stuff.

I always forget about Train In Vain, it's always been one of my absolute least favourite Clash songs. As far as I can tell it is regarded as one of their absolute best by American fans, and younger people coming to the band these days, but it is completely not the sort of Clash song I appreciate.

[Greatkudu]

Both great bands,you could say the Clash were far more successful worldwide commercially,but the Stranglers because they never broke the states they retained their quirky side, imagine JJ in s cowboy hat and boots.Lt Kudu.

[Jake]

Yes that's a good point.
But fair play to JJ on that account because the weird stuff between The Raven and Feline is my favourite and I doubt that would have ended up the same if the first three albums had been really big in America.
I'm not even sure I could name an "american radio" song that the Stranglers recorded during that period! Even the poppier stuff like Strange Little Girl I can't imagine rubbing shoulders with the american pop stuff.

I always forget about Train In Vain, it's always been one of my absolute least favourite Clash songs. As far as I can tell it is regarded as one of their absolute best by American fans, and younger people coming to the band these days, but it is completely not the sort of Clash song I appreciate.

I agree, the most interesting period is from Black and White to La Folie and Feline too, I rate that so incredibly highly, a lot of punters still don’t. I think a lot of people talk of the stranglers with this sense of being English eccentrics, but don’t often refer to the European quality of the stranglers. That’s never going away, and there is a very European sound from The Raven onwards really. Never mind every album prior to that has really strong European references.

It’s pretty much commonplace that European culture gets noted in some way on stranglers records, from the beginning in fact. Sure The Clash brought us “Safe European Home” but the stranglers records are like encyclopaedic knowledge of European affairs. One of the reasons I developed an interest in European history and culture was exposure to the stranglers.

A lot of people are probably indifferent towards Euroman, I think it was a really blessing JJ made that album, The Raven was recorded in Paris, Meninblack across Europe in several studios I believe.
Even though La Folie was recorded in leafy England, it is so very obvious as a European album, and I believe the single of La Folie was more appreciated on the continent. One of my European memories in life is hearing Skin Deep frequently blasting out on the radio in the 90§s still, The Stranglers to this day retain a decent enough following in Europe. I’m fairly sure Hugh does as well, and I would also say Hugh still has European influence in his music, he’s a nifty Spanish style guitar player as well as singing about Cadiz etc

Back onto The Clash briefly, I would say certainly they also had very English sensibilities, but it was perhaps their tendency to lean towards an American sound which helped them break America. Strummer was at times a great singer, but both him and Jonesey especially leaned towards American accents. I have heard this helps British bands to sell, and get the American sales, the more American sounding the singer is, the more likely an American audience will relate, makes a lot of sense


I have to say some of my favourites are their reggae numbers. I think “Guns of Brixton” is a serious contender for a song of all time. I recently find myself appreciating what The Clash were doing with Reggae, to my mind them and The Ruts were around a very limited number of credible white reggae numbers. Police and Thieves, is definitely on par with the original and it represents an important period of white people in England rejecting racism, always a long way to go, people can say what they like about the politics of The Clash, I have said it a lot of it myself, but I do think they had a role, however small in improving race relations in Britain.

Simonon coming from Brixton I think in retrospect wrote something of a prophecy in Guns which at the moment is one of my favourite songs period. I can not recommend enough the history of Brixton podcast of which Simonon was an occasional contributor if anyone wants a bit of history the link is below, oddly enough I don’t think the song Guns of Brixton is mentioned once. It’s a seriously good history documentary series to my mind all white people of Great Britain should engage with such things

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p09cyg ... /downloads

[parasiteinblack]

I agree, the most interesting period is from Black and White to La Folie and Feline too, I rate that so incredibly highly, a lot of punters still don’t. I think a lot of people talk of the stranglers with this sense of being English eccentrics, but don’t often refer to the European quality of the stranglers. That’s never going away, and there is a very European sound from The Raven onwards really. Never mind every album prior to that has really strong European references.

It’s pretty much commonplace that European culture gets noted in some way on stranglers records, from the beginning in fact. Sure The Clash brought us “Safe European Home” but the stranglers records are like encyclopaedic knowledge of European affairs. One of the reasons I developed an interest in European history and culture was exposure to the stranglers.

A lot of people are probably indifferent towards Euroman, I think it was a really blessing JJ made that album, The Raven was recorded in Paris, Meninblack across Europe in several studios I believe.
Even though La Folie was recorded in leafy England, it is so very obvious as a European album, and I believe the single of La Folie was more appreciated on the continent. One of my European memories in life is hearing Skin Deep frequently blasting out on the radio in the 90§s still, The Stranglers to this day retain a decent enough following in Europe. I’m fairly sure Hugh does as well, and I would also say Hugh still has European influence in his music, he’s a nifty Spanish style guitar player as well as singing about Cadiz etc

Yes definitely, the European aspect to the Stranglers work is integral to the appeal really and helped to set them apart from a lot of the other bands. I, too, have taken more interest in history and politics as a result of the Stranglers output.
I really like the Euroman album and the fact it went top 40 is mindblowing really considering how it's not really commercial in the slightest. Really interesting stuff.

Back onto The Clash briefly, I would say certainly they also had very English sensibilities, but it was perhaps their tendency to lean towards an American sound which helped them break America. Strummer was at times a great singer, but both him and Jonesey especially leaned towards American accents. I have heard this helps British bands to sell, and get the American sales, the more American sounding the singer is, the more likely an American audience will relate, makes a lot of sense


I have to say some of my favourites are their reggae numbers. I think “Guns of Brixton” is a serious contender for a song of all time. I recently find myself appreciating what The Clash were doing with Reggae, to my mind them and The Ruts were around a very limited number of credible white reggae numbers. Police and Thieves, is definitely on par with the original and it represents an important period of white people in England rejecting racism, always a long way to go, people can say what they like about the politics of The Clash, I have said it a lot of it myself, but I do think they had a role, however small in improving race relations in Britain.

Simonon coming from Brixton I think in retrospect wrote something of a prophecy in Guns which at the moment is one of my favourite songs period. I can not recommend enough the history of Brixton podcast of which Simonon was an occasional contributor if anyone wants a bit of history the link is below, oddly enough I don’t think the song Guns of Brixton is mentioned once. It’s a seriously good history documentary series to my mind all white people of Great Britain should engage with such things

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p09cyg ... /downloads

Yeah I also quite like their reggae stuff. Guns of Brixton is a classic and I quite like Crooked Beat as well.
The Clash's english sensibilities I think are often more obvious on their less-loved stuff such as bsides like Stop the World, the Cut the Crap and Give Em Enough Rope albums and the tracks from the Combat Rock sessions that went unreleased for years.
They're worth checking out if you haven't heard them, it's like they're from an alternative reality where Combat Rock didn't crack the American charts and the Clash were more like a late 80s british indie band. Maybe I'm just talking crap though haha.