Dark Matters - Second Thoughts

JJ Burnel, ...., Baz Warne, Jim Macaulay.

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dreamtime101
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Re: Dark Matters - Second Thoughts

Post by dreamtime101 »

Bear Cage wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 10:26 Bands at their best have a cohesion, with members working together and contributing to each other, that delivers a synergy (a combined effect greater than the sum of the separate effects). When that cohesion fails the band doesn’t work as well (doesn’t mean they’re bad, just not as good).
Whether any loss of cohesion is permanent or temporary depends greatly upon the cause, personalities and willingness to resolve.
When a band member quits it is normally because that cohesion has gone and they don’t believe it is recoverable, so them staying would be to the detriment of themselves and/or the band.
I think this is the case with each of Hugh, John and Paul leaving the Stranglers. The band, rather than being a cohesive unit delivering real synergy, we’re becoming separate entities that worked on each others mature contributions with little more input than a session musician.
  • Hugh: 10 was mostly written in isolation, and even recorded separately with members not in the studio together, after which Hugh quit because he felt the band as it was had run it’s course.
  • John E: WIR and CDG - the band had spilt into two factions of JE & PR and JJ, Jet and Dave. WIR was almost entirely JE and PR produced, and not particularly well liked by the fans or the rest of the band, who’d lost interest to the point they still allowed it to happen. CDG was the others reasserting their authority which marginalised JE and PR with their songs ‘not making the cut’, but the band were no longer cohesive and JE walked.
  • Paul R: Baz joined and the band worked pretty much as a live unit, prior to jointly producing NC, however between NC and S16 the cohesion fell apart again, PR was no longer as close socially with the band or crew during tours, Baz and JJ were becoming close and PR was marginalised. This came to a head with PRs suggested writing contributions hardly being listened to and the band not happy with some oh his vocal performances or commitment. So Paul walked and S16 was finished without him by the cohesive unit which remained.
Great stuff can (and is) be produced by the separate entities within the band context but if not matured jointly it becomes solo material with the rest of the band as session musicians (and dissatisfaction brewing). The stuff that makes a band special comes from the joint contributions, encouragement (and discouragements), sparks and ideas that deliver the synergy that only comes from working together. Bands (including The Stranglers) are at their best when this happen and pining for what was already lost (and caused the line-up change) doesn’t get us anywhere.
I am thankful for ALL Stranglers albums, even at their worst there are still highs that make them worthwhile (the first few tracks on WIR for instance). I’m also thankful that I’ve enjoyed and continue to enjoy the excellence of The Stranglers live, who so rarely fail to step up to the mark (I can only think of three occasions in over 40 years).

I will now re-listen to the excellent Dark Matters and look forward to catching The Stranglers live in a weeks time.
Excellent post that mate :smt023
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Re: Dark Matters - Second Thoughts

Post by theraven1979 »

Can only agree. Can't say I'm thankful for ALL albums that have the word "The Stranglers" on there. It would be a sad state of affairs if someone's first introduction to the band was Coup De Grace for example.

Jim

Bear Cage wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 10:26 Bands at their best have a cohesion, with members working together and contributing to each other, that delivers a synergy (a combined effect greater than the sum of the separate effects). When that cohesion fails the band doesn’t work as well (doesn’t mean they’re bad, just not as good).
Whether any loss of cohesion is permanent or temporary depends greatly upon the cause, personalities and willingness to resolve.
When a band member quits it is normally because that cohesion has gone and they don’t believe it is recoverable, so them staying would be to the detriment of themselves and/or the band.
I think this is the case with each of Hugh, John and Paul leaving the Stranglers. The band, rather than being a cohesive unit delivering real synergy, we’re becoming separate entities that worked on each others mature contributions with little more input than a session musician.
  • Hugh: 10 was mostly written in isolation, and even recorded separately with members not in the studio together, after which Hugh quit because he felt the band as it was had run its course.
  • John E: WIR and CDG - the band had spilt into two factions of JE & PR and JJ, Jet & Dave. WIR was almost entirely JE & PR produced, and not particularly well liked by the fans or the rest of the band, who’d lost interest to the point they still allowed it to happen. CDG was the others reasserting their authority which marginalised JE & PR with their songs not making the cut, but the band were no longer cohesive and JE walked.
  • Paul R: Baz joined and the band worked pretty much as a live unit, prior to jointly producing NC, however between NC and S16 the cohesion fell apart again, PR was no longer as close socially with the band or crew during tours, Baz and JJ were becoming close and PR was marginalised. This came to a head with PRs suggested writing contributions hardly being listened to and the band not happy with some of his vocal performances or commitment. So Paul walked and S16 was finished without him by the cohesive unit which remained.
Great stuff can be (and is) produced by the separate entities within the band context, but if not matured jointly it becomes solo material with the rest of the band as session musicians (and dissatisfaction brewing). The stuff that makes a band special comes from the joint contributions, encouragement (and discouragements), sparks and ideas that deliver the synergy that only comes from working together. Bands (including The Stranglers) are at their best when this happen and repetitive pining for what was already lost (and caused the line-up change) doesn’t get us anywhere.
I am thankful for ALL Stranglers albums, even at their worst there are still highs that make them worthwhile (the first few tracks on WIR for instance). I’m also thankful that I’ve enjoyed and continue to enjoy the excellence of The Stranglers live, who so rarely fail to step up to the mark (I can only think of three occasions in over 40 years).

I will now re-listen to the excellent Dark Matters and look forward to catching The Stranglers live in a weeks time.
"I bathed in sun and walked in rain
It taught me how to laugh again"
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Re: Dark Matters - Second Thoughts

Post by Greatkudu »

Bear Cage wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 05:05
alaninblack wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 01:28
StanInBlack wrote: 27 Jan 2022, 22:19 I find him a better guitarist than a singer, so I felt that MKIII was the best context for him.
Totally agree. Im sure he is aware of it also. Would have been interested to see where MKIII would have gone. It all clicked for at least one Album.
A great band is not about technical virtuosity. I think some on here forget to distinguish between vocal range (which Paul had) and the performance / contribution to the team (the band), with that contribution being in both what they bring and what they draw out of those around them.
Having seen The Stranglers multiple times across over 40 years, I think although Paul technically might be their best singer (have a better vocal range), as a live act the band are better as a four piece with shared lead vocals. Baz fits the bill perfectly as The Stranglers guitarist, co-vocalist and song co-writer.
Sir spot on. Lt Kudu
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Re: Dark Matters - Second Thoughts

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theraven1979 wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 08:20 As mentioned Paul does have a better voice. I'd much rather listen to him singing than Baz any day.
Indeed. Like, nobody is measuring PR's "technical virtuosity" against Baz's as it would be an ultimately pointless comparison as PR is leagues ahead in that respect. The point is more that PR's voice is more pleasant and enjoyable to listen to. Baz's voice is more suitable for backing vocals, which is why his role in MKIII was perfect for him.
Jon the Impaler wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 08:33 I do think myself though that Retro and the other one they released at that time could have made Giants a better album if they dropped MR , Camden and that jazz thing , though Retro isn't great it is certainly far superior to those imo .
Eh, I'm undoubtedly sure that that wouldn't have improved anything, really. What would have improved Giants (and this extends to Dark Matters too) is actually taking the time to write some decent material.
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Re: Dark Matters - Second Thoughts

Post by Greatkudu »

StanInBlack wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 12:30
theraven1979 wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 08:20 As mentioned Paul does have a better voice. I'd much rather listen to him singing than Baz any day.
Indeed. Like, nobody is measuring PR's "technical virtuosity" against Baz's as it would be an ultimately pointless comparison as PR is leagues ahead in that respect. The point is more that PR's voice is more pleasant and enjoyable to listen to. Baz's voice is more suitable for backing vocals, which is why his role in MKIII was perfect for him.
It's not really relevant who is a better technical singer or vocalist, you could argue that Paul was the best technical singer the Stranglers ever had? It's really about the song and the contribution of the other band members that makes a good song or music, hence why Paul was never really right for the band, his voice was to much for songs that needed less. A good example is Lou Reed not a great singer, but his voice and character was perfect for the music he created, thats the way I feel about Baz, his voice suits the material he sings on especially the last album, he would be the first to admit he isn't a great singer,but his dedication and attitude more than make up for his technical short comings IMHO of course. He's a bit like marmite you either like him or you don't. Lt Kudu.
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Re: Dark Matters - Second Thoughts

Post by StanInBlack »

Bear Cage wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 10:26 Bands at their best have a cohesion, with members working together and contributing to each other, that delivers a synergy (a combined effect greater than the sum of the separate effects).
Of course, and there's no better example of this cohesion than the Black/Burnel/Cornwell/Greenfield line-up at their peak, and that peak lasted for 9 albums. MKII were never really a cohesive unit creatively, and it showed. While MKIII were never as good or as defining a line-up as the classic line-up, they did function as a cohesive unit and one which had potential - hence my earlier comments that MKIII was the perfect context for Baz. Don't forget MKIII was also technically the line-up that recorded the bulk of Suite XVI, so it makes sense.

As for MKIV and onwards? Well, it's clear that PR leaving the band wrecked the cohesion and creative chemistry of the band, as since then - as evidenced by Giants and Dark Matters - the band have actually sounded LESS than the sum of their parts. And now we're at a stage where he have one original member and three non-originals all playing and singing the correct notes in the correct order, yet it barely resembling the band whose music everyone fell in love with in the first place.
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Re: Dark Matters - Second Thoughts

Post by StanInBlack »

Greatkudu wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 12:39 A good example is Lou Reed not a great singer, but his voice and character was perfect for the music he created
Again, nobody is measuring "technical virtuosity" ... Lou Reed certainly wasn't a great singer in the technical sense, but his voice was still pleasant to listen to and it worked.
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Re: Dark Matters - Second Thoughts

Post by alaninblack »

Bear Cage wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 10:26 Bands at their best have a cohesion, with members working together and contributing to each other, that delivers a synergy (a combined effect greater than the sum of the separate effects). When that cohesion fails the band doesn’t work as well (doesn’t mean they’re bad, just not as good).
Whether any loss of cohesion is permanent or temporary depends greatly upon the cause, personalities and willingness to resolve.
When a band member quits it is normally because that cohesion has gone and they don’t believe it is recoverable, so them staying would be to the detriment of themselves and/or th ...................
Great post Bear Cage. I do not think Baz is wrong for the band, far from it. Love the foursome live on stage (no puns) like MKI without the brass etc... I do think Baz is a really good guitarist but lacks somewhat in vocal range. To me, Giants and even DM are very much mainly Baz "outputs". We saw on the Rat Chats that it always seemed to be about Baz in his "new" studio putting something together and seeing what JJ thought, not so much the other way around, and I really like DM.
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Re: Dark Matters - Second Thoughts

Post by Bear Cage »

alaninblack wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 13:11
… We saw on the Rat Chats that it always seemed to be about Baz in his "new" studio putting something together and seeing what JJ thought, not so much the other way around, and I really like DM.
I saw it as ideas shared and worked on under the constraints of COVID, and it didn’t cover the whole album (more the post Dave work under COVID constraints on getting together).
But it is another great Stranglers album, I listened to it again this morning, would love them to play No Mans Land live.
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Re: Dark Matters - Second Thoughts

Post by toilerinblack »

Greatkudu wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 11:39
Bear Cage wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 05:05
alaninblack wrote: 28 Jan 2022, 01:28

Totally agree. Im sure he is aware of it also. Would have been interested to see where MKIII would have gone. It all clicked for at least one Album.
A great band is not about technical virtuosity. I think some on here forget to distinguish between vocal range (which Paul had) and the performance / contribution to the team (the band), with that contribution being in both what they bring and what they draw out of those around them.
Having seen The Stranglers multiple times across over 40 years, I think although Paul technically might be their best singer (have a better vocal range), as a live act the band are better as a four piece with shared lead vocals. Baz fits the bill perfectly as The Stranglers guitarist, co-vocalist and song co-writer.
Sir spot on. Lt Kudu
Agreed, that is basically how i see it too in a nutshell.
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Re: Dark Matters - Second Thoughts

Post by Greatkudu »

Listening to Dark Matters today and my verdict a fucking great album, breathe a sublime piece of work and all the tracks have their own merits, well done Lads. Lt Kudu.
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Re: Dark Matters - Second Thoughts

Post by marky »

If only it was that good
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