Dark Matters - Second Thoughts

[jason]

Well for what it's worth im still enjoying Dark Matters with Mr Warnes forced vocals to, maybe he feels the force and all the slagging he gets on this forum probably makes him even more forced? I doubt he cares. Lt Kudu.

I'm enjoying it as well. Despite the keyboard warriors!

[Greatkudu]

Well for what it's worth im still enjoying Dark Matters with Mr Warnes forced vocals to, maybe he feels the force and all the slagging he gets on this forum probably makes him even more forced? I doubt he cares. Lt Kudu.

I'm enjoying it as well. Despite the keyboard warriors!

Yes we used to have real warriors like the Spartans and the Samurai now it's keyboard warriors, I just don't see the point in constant slagging if you don't like what they do now, I mean others views, best just to let people enjoy it and stop all the negative crap, I'm not being forced to listen to Dark Matters I actually enjoy the music and the varied song selection, If others don't great but its getting fucking boring to be honest, I don't like the WIR album that much, but I don't keep on stating the fact. Lt Kudu.

[Jon the Impaler]

Fair enough ( Wolf ) . Must say on listening to Un Jour last night , I much prefer Fire & Water , plus I think I would rate DM over it too . Its ok , of course but I just prefer those others ...each to their own though, at the end of the day what pleases each is all that matters . Its only opinion .

Fire and Water is one of the best solo stranglers recordings imho..

I can’t see you digging Wolf because a lot of it sounds like an 80s pop record, but I dare you to have a listen

I will give it a try sometime . Unfortunately I never really followed Hugh once he left hence I have missed most of his stuff .

[Jon the Impaler]

Well for what it's worth im still enjoying Dark Matters with Mr Warnes forced vocals to, maybe he feels the force and all the slagging he gets on this forum probably makes him even more forced? I doubt he cares. Lt Kudu.

I really do think we ought not irritate Baz too much.
He will go and write another MR if we do , I couldn't cope with another of those, even the acoustic on DM is nowhere near as bad as that

[StanInBlack]

Just to say that I find Suite to be the best "Baz vocal album" of the 3.
If anything his vocals have become more "forced" on let's say, This Song, than they ever were before.

I actually agree with this completely. As much as I don't really rate Baz as a singer, I don't think he's ever sounded better than he does on Suite XVI. The weird thing about that is on that record he was singing to backing tracks that had been laid down in keys that were tailored to Paul Roberts' voice. Logically, you'd think Baz would sound better singing in keys more natural and suitable to his own voice - after all, this is how it generally works. But his vocals on Giants and Dark Matters don't sound anywhere near as good.

I remember hearing "Retro Rockets" for the first time and not being taken with the vocals at all (of course, it's far from being a good song either) and I thought "maybe Baz was just having an off day vocally" because it sounded to me like his voice had slipped from the standards he'd set on Suite XVI, but no. Given that on lead vocals this band has had Hugh Cornwell, Paul Roberts and Dave Greenfield (all excellent voices) as well as JJ Burnel himself (who is actually a decent singer when he's at his best and full of character), I'd probably rank Baz as last place vocally when all's said and done. I find him a better guitarist than a singer, so I felt that MKIII was the best context for him.

[alaninblack]

I find him a better guitarist than a singer, so I felt that MKIII was the best context for him.

Totally agree. Im sure he is aware of it also. Would have been interested to see where MKIII would have gone. It all clicked for at least one Album.

[Bear Cage]

I find him a better guitarist than a singer, so I felt that MKIII was the best context for him.

Totally agree. Im sure he is aware of it also. Would have been interested to see where MKIII would have gone. It all clicked for at least one Album.

A great band is not about technical virtuosity. I think some on here forget to distinguish between vocal range (which Paul had) and the performance / contribution to the team (the band), with that contribution being in both what they bring and what they draw out of those around them.
Having seen The Stranglers multiple times across over 40 years, I think although Paul technically might be their best singer (have a better vocal range), as a live act the band are better as a four piece with shared lead vocals. Baz fits the bill perfectly as The Stranglers guitarist, co-vocalist and song co-writer.

[theraven1979]

As mentioned Paul does have a better voice. I'd much rather listen to him singing than Baz any day. Baz does sound like he's forcing himself to sound like a Strangler particularly evident on DM. I think if Paul had have calmed down a little onstage and acted a bit more "stranglers" (i.e black shirt, black kegs, docs, no prancing around the stage etc) more people would've accepted him

Jim

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

[Jon the Impaler]

From the brief view of this I have seen this morning then , in summary ........Paul R vocals were quite forced up until Norfolk ( his best with the band ) while Baz was relatively unforced on Norfolk but now more forced .......so they have done it the opposite way round .....and the two albums where they were both more natural are considered the best ones outside of M1 .

[Jon the Impaler]

Just to say that I find Suite to be the best "Baz vocal album" of the 3.
If anything his vocals have become more "forced" on let's say, This Song, than they ever were before.

I actually agree with this completely. As much as I don't really rate Baz as a singer, I don't think he's ever sounded better than he does on Suite XVI. The weird thing about that is on that record he was singing to backing tracks that had been laid down in keys that were tailored to Paul Roberts' voice. Logically, you'd think Baz would sound better singing in keys more natural and suitable to his own voice - after all, this is how it generally works. But his vocals on Giants and Dark Matters don't sound anywhere near as good.

I remember hearing "Retro Rockets" for the first time and not being taken with the vocals at all (of course, it's far from being a good song either) and I thought "maybe Baz was just having an off day vocally" because it sounded to me like his voice had slipped from the standards he'd set on Suite XVI, but no. Given that on lead vocals this band has had Hugh Cornwell, Paul Roberts and Dave Greenfield (all excellent voices) as well as JJ Burnel himself (who is actually a decent singer when he's at his best and full of character), I'd probably rank Baz as last place vocally when all's said and done. I find him a better guitarist than a singer, so I felt that MKIII was the best context for him.

I do think myself though that Retro and the other one they released at that time could have made Giants a better album if they dropped MR , Camden and that jazz thing , though Retro isn't great it is certainly far superior to those imo .

[Jon the Impaler]

I find him a better guitarist than a singer, so I felt that MKIII was the best context for him.

Totally agree. Im sure he is aware of it also. Would have been interested to see where MKIII would have gone. It all clicked for at least one Album.

Might be two actually , somewhere out there is a version of Suite with PR on it ( except Relentless apparently) .

[Bear Cage]

Bands at their best have a cohesion, with members working together and contributing to each other, that delivers a synergy (a combined effect greater than the sum of the separate effects). When that cohesion fails the band doesn’t work as well (doesn’t mean they’re bad, just not as good).
Whether any loss of cohesion is permanent or temporary depends greatly upon the cause, personalities and willingness to resolve.
When a band member quits it is normally because that cohesion has gone and they don’t believe it is recoverable, so them staying would be to the detriment of themselves and/or the band.
I think this is the case with each of Hugh, John and Paul leaving the Stranglers. The band, rather than being a cohesive unit delivering real synergy, we’re becoming separate entities that worked on each others mature contributions with little more input than a session musician.

• Hugh: 10 was mostly written in isolation, and even recorded separately with members not in the studio together, after which Hugh quit because he felt the band as it was had run its course.
• John E: WIR and CDG - the band had spilt into two factions of JE & PR and JJ, Jet & Dave. WIR was almost entirely JE & PR produced, and not particularly well liked by the fans or the rest of the band, who’d lost interest to the point they still allowed it to happen. CDG was the others reasserting their authority which marginalised JE & PR with their songs not making the cut, but the band were no longer cohesive and JE walked.
• Paul R: Baz joined and the band worked pretty much as a live unit, prior to jointly producing NC, however between NC and S16 the cohesion fell apart again, PR was no longer as close socially with the band or crew during tours, Baz and JJ were becoming close and PR was marginalised. This came to a head with PRs suggested writing contributions hardly being listened to and the band not happy with some of his vocal performances or commitment. So Paul walked and S16 was finished without him by the cohesive unit which remained.

Great stuff can be (and is) produced by the separate entities within the band context, but if not matured jointly it becomes solo material with the rest of the band as session musicians (and dissatisfaction brewing). The stuff that makes a band special comes from the joint contributions, encouragement (and discouragements), sparks and ideas that deliver the synergy that only comes from working together. Bands (including The Stranglers) are at their best when this happen and repetitive pining for what was already lost (and caused the line-up change) doesn’t get us anywhere.
I am thankful for ALL Stranglers albums, even at their worst there are still highs that make them worthwhile (the first few tracks on WIR for instance). I’m also thankful that I’ve enjoyed and continue to enjoy the excellence of The Stranglers live, who so rarely fail to step up to the mark (I can only think of three occasions in over 40 years).

I will now re-listen to the excellent Dark Matters and look forward to catching The Stranglers live in a weeks time.