Statues and censoring old songs

Other non Stranglers stuff here

Moderator: StanInBlack

User avatar
theraven1979
Maninwhite
Maninwhite
Posts: 33225
Joined: 22 Dec 2001, 11:41
Location: Saltaire
Contact:

Re: Statues and censoring old songs

Post by theraven1979 »

Spot on!

Jim
Mathew wrote:
28 Jul 2020, 11:40
Jesus... Reading this thread was depressing. Perspective underpins our views. Our experiences and our environments dictate how we perceive the world around us and our place within that world. Outside of those personal perspectives are universal truths and irrefutable facts that lay the fabric of what societies should hold up as their unifying moral and ethical standards.
The responsibility of all of us therefore should be to understand the universal lived experience of all people. Only then do our opinions carry weight.
Psychologists refer to this as Small Picture Big Picture. If we rely solely on our individual perspectives to determine our opinions we risk a narrow world view. We risk ignoring the perspectives of other people. We risk understanding the Big Picture.
Tearing down a statue is a Small Picture narrative. Why was it torn down? What did it represent? Why do people oppose it? They are Big Picture narratives.
I try to respect what people believe but my question would always be 'Why do you think that? `...what personal bias and skewed perspective informs you. Which Small Picture events do you seize on and elevate to the status of universal truths.
Oppose injustice and racism whenever you see it. Empathise with the perspectives and lived experiences of people who live very different lives to your own. Never elevate your own perspective above the need for equality and justice for all people regardless of their race, gender or faith
"I bathed in sun and walked in rain
It taught me how to laugh again"

User avatar
dronecatcher
VERSATRAN SERIES F
Posts: 127
Joined: 16 Nov 2018, 15:21

Re: Statues and censoring old songs

Post by dronecatcher »

Mathew wrote:
28 Jul 2020, 11:40
Jesus... Reading this thread was depressing. Perspective underpins our views.
What's so depressing - people attempting to discuss this in a civilised manner wthout screaming soundbites and slogans at each other?
Last edited by dronecatcher on 28 Jul 2020, 14:08, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Mathew
VERSATRAN SERIES F
Posts: 180
Joined: 26 Feb 2011, 19:01
Location: Sheffield

Re: Statues and censoring old songs

Post by Mathew »

dronecatcher wrote:
28 Jul 2020, 13:59
Mathew wrote:
28 Jul 2020, 11:40
Jesus... Reading this thread was depressing. Perspective underpins our views.
What's so depressing - people attempting to discuss this in a civilised wthout screaming soundbites and slogans at each other?
No I found that bit quite encouraging

User avatar
dronecatcher
VERSATRAN SERIES F
Posts: 127
Joined: 16 Nov 2018, 15:21

Re: Statues and censoring old songs

Post by dronecatcher »

Mathew wrote:
28 Jul 2020, 14:02

No I found that bit quite encouraging
The only problem with the Big Picture interpretation now is for a lot of people that comes from biased MSM and SM - that's where active discussion is valuable. Perfect example being BLM - eveyone jumped on the noble phrase/message without even checking out the political underpinnings of the movement.

User avatar
Mathew
VERSATRAN SERIES F
Posts: 180
Joined: 26 Feb 2011, 19:01
Location: Sheffield

Re: Statues and censoring old songs

Post by Mathew »

dronecatcher wrote:
28 Jul 2020, 14:12
Mathew wrote:
28 Jul 2020, 14:02

No I found that bit quite encouraging
The only problem with the Big Picture interpretation now is for a lot of people that comes from biased MSM and SM - that's where active discussion is valuable. Perfect example being BLM - eveyone jumped on the noble phrase/message without even checking out the political underpinnings of the movement.
... Yes and it's through the embracing of the wider context that we arrive at universally agreed, shared goals and aspirations.
My perspective is that equality and social parity are the Big Picture in the BLM debate.

User avatar
dronecatcher
VERSATRAN SERIES F
Posts: 127
Joined: 16 Nov 2018, 15:21

Re: Statues and censoring old songs

Post by dronecatcher »

Mathew wrote:
28 Jul 2020, 14:23
My perspective is that equality and social parity are the Big Picture in the BLM debate.
Unfortunately I disagree. They are weaponising specific incidents, manipulating the natural repulsion to racism to create social discord, division and instability.

Meanwhile in China, ethic cleansing is being carried out with relatively minimal MSM coverage or outrage - millions of Uighur muslims are suffering at the hands of state persecution. Who gets to decide that isn't a worthy cause for equality and social parity?

User avatar
Mathew
VERSATRAN SERIES F
Posts: 180
Joined: 26 Feb 2011, 19:01
Location: Sheffield

Re: Statues and censoring old songs

Post by Mathew »

I think we agree about more than we disagree. I share your natural repulsion for racism. I share your revulsion for the repression of the Uighurs.
I don't see the distinction you infer between the plight of either

Niki Wu
The Raven
The Raven
Posts: 2489
Joined: 09 Feb 2007, 19:24
Location: The Welsh Riviera

Re: Statues and censoring old songs

Post by Niki Wu »

theraven1979 wrote:
28 Jul 2020, 11:51
Spot on!

Jim
Mathew wrote:
28 Jul 2020, 11:40
Jesus... Reading this thread was depressing. Perspective underpins our views. Our experiences and our environments dictate how we perceive the world around us and our place within that world. Outside of those personal perspectives are universal truths and irrefutable facts that lay the fabric of what societies should hold up as their unifying moral and ethical standards.
The responsibility of all of us therefore should be to understand the universal lived experience of all people. Only then do our opinions carry weight.
Psychologists refer to this as Small Picture Big Picture. If we rely solely on our individual perspectives to determine our opinions we risk a narrow world view. We risk ignoring the perspectives of other people. We risk understanding the Big Picture.
Tearing down a statue is a Small Picture narrative. Why was it torn down? What did it represent? Why do people oppose it? They are Big Picture narratives.
I try to respect what people believe but my question would always be 'Why do you think that? `...what personal bias and skewed perspective informs you. Which Small Picture events do you seize on and elevate to the status of universal truths.
Oppose injustice and racism whenever you see it. Empathise with the perspectives and lived experiences of people who live very different lives to your own. Never elevate your own perspective above the need for equality and justice for all people regardless of their race, gender or faith
The flaw in this argument is that it trivialises the universal lived experience of black people. I think it was right for a statue which insults and induces trauma in people to be removed from a place of public prominence. It's a shame it took an act of civil disobedience in order to do so. I also feel that the trauma of lockdown may have triggered this response. What concerns me now is that a collective healing process has to take place whilst we are already struggling with a pandemic and all that that entails.

User avatar
Mathew
VERSATRAN SERIES F
Posts: 180
Joined: 26 Feb 2011, 19:01
Location: Sheffield

Re: Statues and censoring old songs

Post by Mathew »

Hi Niki Wu. I'm not sure how what I said trivialises lived black lives and experiences? Certainly my intention was to highlight how intolerant we can be about other people, their faiths, motivations and beliefs.
The Big Picture on the statues issue is that we memorialise people who are diametrically opposed to the developed sense of moral and ethical societal values we should uphold today.
The Small Picture is that they look nice, they are familiar and they come from 'a different era' but 'also did some good things'

Niki Wu
The Raven
The Raven
Posts: 2489
Joined: 09 Feb 2007, 19:24
Location: The Welsh Riviera

Re: Statues and censoring old songs

Post by Niki Wu »

Mathew wrote:
29 Jul 2020, 08:05
Hi Niki Wu. I'm not sure how what I said trivialises lived black lives and experiences? Certainly my intention was to highlight how intolerant we can be about other people, their faiths, motivations and beliefs.
The Big Picture on the statues issue is that we memorialise people who are diametrically opposed to the developed sense of moral and ethical societal values we should uphold today.
The Small Picture is that they look nice, they are familiar and they come from 'a different era' but 'also did some good things'
Which is why the statue belongs in a museum rather than a river.

User avatar
Mathew
VERSATRAN SERIES F
Posts: 180
Joined: 26 Feb 2011, 19:01
Location: Sheffield

Re: Statues and censoring old songs

Post by Mathew »

Agreed

Post Reply