Statues and censoring old songs

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dronecatcher
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Re: Statues and censoring old songs

Post by dronecatcher »

sendwarrior wrote:
23 Jul 2020, 14:54
dronecatcher wrote:
22 Jul 2020, 15:58
I don't think anyone here said racism, discrimination and prejudice don't exist though
No, you all seem to think 'It's not that bad here' but that is not true. You are shielded from it by your privilege of being the racial majority. Just because it's not a problem for you personally doesn't mean it's not a problem.
No, I base it on racial studies and stats in the UK.
sendwarrior wrote:
23 Jul 2020, 14:54
dronecatcher wrote:
22 Jul 2020, 15:58
and experience of any of those are not just the preserve of black women.
Obviously. It is simply the best example, being the direct opposite of white man. I know racism is present across many races and cultures. The problem is that both in the UK and the USA, society is deliberately set to give white males the greatest advantages, and when that is questioned the beneficiaries of these advantages usually get their hackles up :-x

It's irrational thinking based upon the incorrect assumption that it's a zero sum game.
Society isn't deliberately set up like anything - society is a collective term for the mass of individuals who make their own path the best they can.
As mentioned before, there's a whole raft of legislation in place to protect the rights of minority groups in the UK - that doesn't prevent willful sidestepping of such protections of course but on the whole they hold.
Four years ago the US had a black president, in the UK there are currently enthic minorities in the cabinet - maybe they all attained those positions through their ability and character, not the shade of their skin.

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sendwarrior
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Re: Statues and censoring old songs

Post by sendwarrior »

dronecatcher wrote:
23 Jul 2020, 15:20
Society isn't deliberately set up like anything - society is a collective term for the mass of individuals who make their own path the best they can.
In the UK and the USA, it is set up by the laws and infrastructure put in place by rich white men. This has not yet changed suffieciently to be fully inclusive of anyone outside of that, nor does it allow people a fair chance to 'make their own path'. Your background determines your future to a very large degree. A boy born to a wealthy white family has a massive head start in life over a girl born to a poverty stricken black famly :x If you think we are all given an equal start and equal opportunities in life you need to think again!

As for ethnic minorities in government or other senior positions, you will find that they have had to work 100x harder than their white equivalents to achieve these promotions.
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dronecatcher
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Re: Statues and censoring old songs

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sendwarrior wrote:
24 Jul 2020, 16:46
In the UK and the USA, it is set up by the laws and infrastructure put in place by rich white men.
And why wouldn't it be? In Africa, laws have been put in place by wealthy black men, in China by wealthy Chinese - the majority race will always be representative.
sendwarrior wrote:
24 Jul 2020, 16:46
Your background determines your future to a very large degree. A boy born to a wealthy white family has a massive head start in life over a girl born to a poverty stricken black famly :x If you think we are all given an equal start and equal opportunities in life you need to think again!
Yes and that's wealth related - nothing to do with racial background - a poor black child is every bit as poor as a poor white child.
No we are not all born equal - that's evolution and natural selection - not everybody can be talented, intelligent or plain lucky.
sendwarrior wrote:
24 Jul 2020, 16:46
As for ethnic minorities in government or other senior positions, you will find that they have had to work 100x harder than their white equivalents to achieve these promotions.
How so other than a guess on your part?

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theraven1979
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Re: Statues and censoring old songs

Post by theraven1979 »

This (and your other viewpoints) are incredibly narrow minded. You're focusing on a very fine line which no one is disputing by the way, despite the amount of preaching you keep giving us. Maybe you've just got it in for rich white men.

Agreed everyone is given some sort of start in life. Life's what you make it. A "rich white man" can have a worse upbringing than a man (since we're focusing on men) in a "poverty stricken black family" for example and vice versa. Also, in relation to your final paragraph where's the evidence?. I can provide examples on my comments.

Finally, people need to make their own decisions. All your preaching isn't gonna change that regardless of how many times you bang the drum. I wished we lived in a world without racism, sexism and cruelty to animals etc. Of course we can be proactive about it. If I see it I'll step up.

Jim
sendwarrior wrote:
24 Jul 2020, 16:46
dronecatcher wrote:
23 Jul 2020, 15:20
Society isn't deliberately set up like anything - society is a collective term for the mass of individuals who make their own path the best they can.
In the UK and the USA, it is set up by the laws and infrastructure put in place by rich white men. This has not yet changed suffieciently to be fully inclusive of anyone outside of that, nor does it allow people a fair chance to 'make their own path'. Your background determines your future to a very large degree. A boy born to a wealthy white family has a massive head start in life over a girl born to a poverty stricken black famly :x If you think we are all given an equal start and equal opportunities in life you need to think again!

As for ethnic minorities in government or other senior positions, you will find that they have had to work 100x harder than their white equivalents to achieve these promotions.
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It taught me how to laugh again"

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sendwarrior
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Re: Statues and censoring old songs

Post by sendwarrior »

dronecatcher wrote:
24 Jul 2020, 17:16
How so other than a guess on your part?
They have said so in interviews :smile:
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sendwarrior
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Re: Statues and censoring old songs

Post by sendwarrior »

theraven1979 wrote:
24 Jul 2020, 17:19
This (and your other viewpoints) are incredibly narrow minded.

Finally, people need to make their own decisions. All your preaching isn't gonna change that regardless of how many times you bang the drum.
I notice that other contributors to this thread have not been accused of being 'narrow minded' or 'preaching' for stating their views..
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theraven1979
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Re: Statues and censoring old songs

Post by theraven1979 »

sendwarrior wrote:
theraven1979 wrote:
24 Jul 2020, 17:19
This (and your other viewpoints) are incredibly narrow minded.

Finally, people need to make their own decisions. All your preaching isn't gonna change that regardless of how many times you bang the drum.
I notice that other contributors to this thread have not been accused of being 'narrow minded' or 'preaching' for stating their views..
Good point!

Ah well that's that then.

Jim

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dronecatcher
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Re: Statues and censoring old songs

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sendwarrior wrote:
24 Jul 2020, 20:12
dronecatcher wrote:
24 Jul 2020, 17:16
How so other than a guess on your part?
They have said so in interviews :smile:
Can you give links to these interviews where they've said such?

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sendwarrior
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Re: Statues and censoring old songs

Post by sendwarrior »

dronecatcher wrote:
24 Jul 2020, 21:20
Can you give links to these interviews where they've said such?
Put your hackles back down. It's pretty lame if you've never read any reports about the real struggles with discrimination that people face!

Here's a recent one with the very intelligent and highly qualified David Lammy:
https://www.politicshome.com/thehouse/a ... ral-racism

And here are some very recent research results into inequalities in the job market:
http://csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/?p=1299

<steps back and waits for these to be dismissed or have holes picked in them..>
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dronecatcher
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Re: Statues and censoring old songs

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sendwarrior wrote:
25 Jul 2020, 12:28
dronecatcher wrote:
24 Jul 2020, 21:20
Can you give links to these interviews where they've said such?
Put your hackles back down. It's pretty lame if you've never read any reports about the real struggles with discrimination that people face!

Here's a recent one with the very intelligent and highly qualified David Lammy:
https://www.politicshome.com/thehouse/a ... ral-racism

And here are some very recent research results into inequalities in the job market:
http://csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/?p=1299

<steps back and waits for these to be dismissed or have holes picked in them..>
I'll ignore the ad hominem.

I didn't find anything in the Lammy article where he stated he had to work much harder than his white counterparts to attain his position - if anything, the article makes much of his accelerated ascent through working life.

I present no argument with the survey - it's raw data indicates (though doesn't conclusively prove) racial discrimination exists in the recruitment market on first inspection but ask yourself this, if two candidates are identically qualified and suited and the only discernible difference between them is their race, is it really racist to choose the person of your own race? Peple do gravite towards the familiar. And if it is then isn't choosing the other race then reverse discrimination?
If they are two identically qualified white candidates, has the one not selected then been discriminated against because of....their hairstyle or whatever other subtle difference found?

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Re: Statues and censoring old songs

Post by Mathew »

Jesus... Reading this thread was depressing. Perspective underpins our views. Our experiences and our environments dictate how we perceive the world around us and our place within that world. Outside of those personal perspectives are universal truths and irrefutable facts that lay the fabric of what societies should hold up as their unifying moral and ethical standards.
The responsibility of all of us therefore should be to understand the universal lived experience of all people. Only then do our opinions carry weight.
Psychologists refer to this as Small Picture Big Picture. If we rely solely on our individual perspectives to determine our opinions we risk a narrow world view. We risk ignoring the perspectives of other people. We risk understanding the Big Picture.
Tearing down a statue is a Small Picture narrative. Why was it torn down? What did it represent? Why do people oppose it? They are Big Picture narratives.
I try to respect what people believe but my question would always be 'Why do you think that? `...what personal bias and skewed perspective informs you. Which Small Picture events do you seize on and elevate to the status of universal truths.
Oppose injustice and racism whenever you see it. Empathise with the perspectives and lived experiences of people who live very different lives to your own. Never elevate your own perspective above the need for equality and justice for all people regardless of their race, gender or faith

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sendwarrior
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Re: Statues and censoring old songs

Post by sendwarrior »

Very well said 👌
Mathew wrote:
28 Jul 2020, 11:40
Jesus... Reading this thread was depressing. Perspective underpins our views. Our experiences and our environments dictate how we perceive the world around us and our place within that world. Outside of those personal perspectives are universal truths and irrefutable facts that lay the fabric of what societies should hold up as their unifying moral and ethical standards.
The responsibility of all of us therefore should be to understand the universal lived experience of all people. Only then do our opinions carry weight.
Psychologists refer to this as Small Picture Big Picture. If we rely solely on our individual perspectives to determine our opinions we risk a narrow world view. We risk ignoring the perspectives of other people. We risk understanding the Big Picture.
Tearing down a statue is a Small Picture narrative. Why was it torn down? What did it represent? Why do people oppose it? They are Big Picture narratives.
I try to respect what people believe but my question would always be 'Why do you think that? `...what personal bias and skewed perspective informs you. Which Small Picture events do you seize on and elevate to the status of universal truths.
Oppose injustice and racism whenever you see it. Empathise with the perspectives and lived experiences of people who live very different lives to your own. Never elevate your own perspective above the need for equality and justice for all people regardless of their race, gender or faith
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