Strangler in the light

[DoctorBlack]

what I did pick up over the years was JE was on a (mediocre?) fixed wage or so and then was expected to play in a place with an element of danger under the same agreement. Is that how it went? If so, I think he had a point.

According to the book, JE had a habit of demanding his pay to be doubled ten days before a tour started knowing that he couldn't be replaced and they wouldn't cancel the tour. When he tried it in 2000, they had a replacement ready.

[markorbit]

what I did pick up over the years was JE was on a (mediocre?) fixed wage or so and then was expected to play in a place with an element of danger under the same agreement. Is that how it went? If so, I think he had a point.

According to the book, JE had a habit of demanding his pay to be doubled ten days before a tour started knowing that he couldn't be replaced and they wouldn't cancel the tour. When he tried it in 2000, they had a replacement ready.

Ah, thanks. I wasn't familiar with JJ's perspective. That said, it got me thinking. It seems to be the way a lot of bands work. They start out... it's a band... everyone is IN the band (of course)... they have some success... then replacements eventually arrive but are put on a wage. Not saying it's right or wrong but it seems to happen a lot. The established members get a bigger slice of the live pie (or take the hit on losses).

[Yanders]

I suppose there's pros and cons. John had a steady income, time to spend on other projects and didnt risk financial hit with LPs or tours potentially losing money. But he had little influence or say on touring dates and venues, and if the tour did well, or merch flew off the shelves, he didnt benefit.

Its more usual for that set up if the writers are band members and the newbies just play. But i get the impression john was seen at first as a songwriter.

Its like that now with JJ an Baz as the stranglers and the other two as employees.

[theraven1979]

Well they did lose a significant songwriter in Hugh going. Dave and Jet weren't really lyricists and JJ doesn't exactly churn out songs so I think it's a fair assumption they were looking to John for songs I guess.

Jim

[Ruby]

According to the book, JE had a habit of demanding his pay to be doubled ten days before a tour started knowing that he couldn't be replaced and they wouldn't cancel the tour. When he tried it in 2000, they had a replacement ready.

Well there's two sides to every story but we never get Ellis's version.I doubt he would've pulled out of a planned tour just ten days before it commenced and have the whole thing cancelled,if only for professional reasons.His name in the industry would be mud.

[theraven1979]

According to the book, JE had a habit of demanding his pay to be doubled ten days before a tour started knowing that he couldn't be replaced and they wouldn't cancel the tour. When he tried it in 2000, they had a replacement ready.

Well there's two sides to every story but we never get Ellis's version.I doubt he would've pulled out of a planned tour just ten days before it commenced and have the whole thing cancelled,if only for professional reasons.His name in the industry would be mud.

Agreed. There's also got to be contractual arrangements to stop people pulling that shit

Jim

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[evonx]

I assume Ellis wanting extra money for those gigs in former Yugoslavia was not the main reason. Don't forget Ellis' contributions were dismissed after the commercial failure of Written in Red and he openly stated he was not happy at all just touring the hits and Cornwell era classics, wanting to proof this new version of the Stranglers had someting to offer too.
Whether we agree on that this new stranglers band had something to offer or not, I do see his point. When he joined he was given the opportunity to write and record his ideas. In The Night, About Time and WIR have a good number of tracks that came (mostly) from him. The lack of success and JJ's getting his writing mojo back bit by bit (starting with the Coup cd) diminished his role to a session player. Don't forget that on the Hits and Heroes tour only two or three of the songs they played night after night were from the mk 2 band.

[theraven1979]

I think you were at a few of those 99 gigs Eric and I attended a few. It was pretty obvious the wheels had come off at that point.


Jim

[jetblacksdad]

I assume Ellis wanting extra money for those gigs in former Yugoslavia was not the main reason. Don't forget Ellis' contributions were dismissed after the commercial failure of Written in Red and he openly stated he was not happy at all just touring the hits and Cornwell era classics, wanting to proof this new version of the Stranglers had someting to offer too.
Whether we agree on that this new stranglers band had something to offer or not, I do see his point. When he joined he was given the opportunity to write and record his ideas. In The Night, About Time and WIR have a good number of tracks that came (mostly) from him. The lack of success and JJ's getting his writing mojo back bit by bit (starting with the Coup cd) diminished his role to a session player. Don't forget that on the Hits and Heroes tour only two or three of the songs they played night after night were from the mk 2 band.

Cos they had no hits and alot of the tracks were not very heroic!!!

[toilerinblack]

I assume Ellis wanting extra money for those gigs in former Yugoslavia was not the main reason. Don't forget Ellis' contributions were dismissed after the commercial failure of Written in Red and he openly stated he was not happy at all just touring the hits and Cornwell era classics, wanting to proof this new version of the Stranglers had someting to offer too.
Whether we agree on that this new stranglers band had something to offer or not, I do see his point. When he joined he was given the opportunity to write and record his ideas. In The Night, About Time and WIR have a good number of tracks that came (mostly) from him. The lack of success and JJ's getting his writing mojo back bit by bit (starting with the Coup cd) diminished his role to a session player. Don't forget that on the Hits and Heroes tour only two or three of the songs they played night after night were from the mk 2 band.

Yes I do see his point he's a creative musician/ songwriter/guitarist who ok you know you've joined an already successful band with hits whose expected to keep playing the old Hugh stuff but you would want to make your mark and known for your creative work in a band with your new material, once again it's back to them deciding not to go under a new name and them carrying on with the brand name.
John's input to WIR was bloody excellent i think his input was great even though i'm in the minority with that album but I don't blame him as the musician he was and is for wanting to go more in that direction I've always felt myself like Hugh in a way is that the buzz is always new creative songs your songs as you either get bored or fed up doing the old hits that eventually means nothing buzz wise I mean or in John's case old hits that's not even his work or has his creative signature to them and you want to be known for your creativeness...I fully get that and understand him and that was the downside to joining a previously successful hits band which obviously he knew that but after a while of doing someone else's work as in this case Hugh's and that'll only wash so long and your going to want to make your creative mark and stamp in the band that's only natural for a good creative and talented musician like is.
For me it's another good reason why they should of been a new band with a new name.
I've always felt that JE & PR were good together and their creativeness was excellent work but away from the brand name they joined that's for me were it hasn't worked and the only reason because they are very good creative musicians in their own right and projects.

[Yanders]

JJ could lose a lot of control in a new band, not in a power mad way, more protecting his legacy. From the early 90s it has been his decision whether they even carried on, with a new set up - all members been equal, they could just get a new bass player if he left.

The new band would be always be associated with the stranglers and could easily morph into whatever john and paul wanted. Like Hugh having no control of the stranglers material now and how they are perceived, jj could lose that with a new band.

[markorbit]

If JE wanted his wages doubled ie: not just 120% then that indicates what money he thought was on the table compared to what he was getting. As toilerinblack alludes, having his songs dismissed would have brought more things into focus.