Dark Matters review

[Bear Cage]

I agree to an extent with you there Jim, in that from what we’ve heard to date DM does have that Stranglers feel/sound. I think this is partially through it being a proper collaborative effort in the development of ideas into completed songs, which I feel wrt The Stranglers is one of their strengths.
When they are working separately, each delivering almost completed songs for consideration, even if individually these are good songs, they lose some of that ‘Stranglers’ touch and the overall quality of the album suffers, becoming a bolting together of solo efforts. Whereas when they work together the total tends to be better than the sum of the parts, and have more of that Stranglers feel/sound.
This applies to throughout their career, wrt mk1 by the time they got to 10 the majority of songs were being developed individually and then presented for consideration as almost a fait accompli.
Similarly with mkII, initially it was very collaborative, but by the time of WIR JJ, Jet and Dave were almost (disinterested) session players on a JE/PR project, hence it doesn’t have that ‘Stranglers’ sound, with CDG switching the other way and JE/PR marginalised.
For their recent albums they are back to working collaboratively at developing ideas into songs, so the output has The Stranglers sound.
So I’m looking forwards to DM being both a Stranglers album by name, and also one by sound/feel/quality.

[parasiteinblack]

I agree to an extent with you there Jim, in that from what we’ve heard to date DM does have that Stranglers feel/sound. I think this is partially through it being a proper collaborative effort in the development of ideas into completed songs, which I feel wrt The Stranglers is one of their strengths.
When they are working separately, each delivering almost completed songs for consideration, even if individually these are good songs, they lose some of that ‘Stranglers’ touch and the overall quality of the album suffers, becoming a bolting together of solo efforts. Whereas when they work together the total tends to be better than the sum of the parts, and have more of that Stranglers feel/sound.
This applies to throughout their career, wrt mk1 by the time they got to 10 the majority of songs were being developed individually and then presented for consideration as almost a fait accompli.
Similarly with mkII, initially it was very collaborative, but by the time of WIR JJ, Jet and Dave were almost (disinterested) session players on a JE/PR project, hence it doesn’t have that ‘Stranglers’ sound, with CDG switching the other way and JE/PR marginalised.
For their recent albums they are back to working collaboratively at developing ideas into songs, so the output has The Stranglers sound.
So I’m looking forwards to DM being both a Stranglers album by name, and also one by sound/feel/quality.

Great points.
It's also pretty evident that the most collaborative tracks in the MKII era tended to be the best ones - Valley of the Birds for example is the track highlighted by the band in No Mercy as the best on the album and is the most traditionally Stranglers one on WIR.

[toilerinblack]

I agree to an extent with you there Jim, in that from what we’ve heard to date DM does have that Stranglers feel/sound. I think this is partially through it being a proper collaborative effort in the development of ideas into completed songs, which I feel wrt The Stranglers is one of their strengths.
When they are working separately, each delivering almost completed songs for consideration, even if individually these are good songs, they lose some of that ‘Stranglers’ touch and the overall quality of the album suffers, becoming a bolting together of solo efforts. Whereas when they work together the total tends to be better than the sum of the parts, and have more of that Stranglers feel/sound.
This applies to throughout their career, wrt mk1 by the time they got to 10 the majority of songs were being developed individually and then presented for consideration as almost a fait accompli.
Similarly with mkII, initially it was very collaborative, but by the time of WIR JJ, Jet and Dave were almost (disinterested) session players on a JE/PR project, hence it doesn’t have that ‘Stranglers’ sound, with CDG switching the other way and JE/PR marginalised.
For their recent albums they are back to working collaboratively at developing ideas into songs, so the output has The Stranglers sound.
So I’m looking forwards to DM being both a Stranglers album by name, and also one by sound/feel/quality.

Yes i agree with alot of what you have said and that is the case as a norm for the members working together producing such good material rather than seperate to get the best out of a song,we saw that alot with MK1 and especially towards the end of the Hugh days with them working seperate most of the time with JJ and Hugh bringing their work to the table so to speak like a job and 10 is proof of that.10 was such a seperate and divided sounding album material wise that was a real mixed bag,some of it very good and some really wasn't what with there being JJ songs and Hugh songs,but with Dark Matters that dosen't appear to be the case because of covid Baz and JJ have been working apart in different countries but it still seems to have worked out on the whole very well and have been able to produce some very good work apart from the two of them and them mixed and polished of to gems by the 5th beatle Louie lol

[Bear Cage]

…but with Dark Matters that dosen't appear to be the case because of covid Baz and Jj have been working apart in different countries but it still seems to have worked very well and to be able to produce some very good work apart.

I think with DM, although apart they’ve still developed the songs together, providing ideas to each other then each developing prior to passing back. In addition, they commenced working on much of the material pre lockdown, so it’s only the finishing and final songs that had to be worked this way.

[toilerinblack]

…but with Dark Matters that dosen't appear to be the case because of covid Baz and Jj have been working apart in different countries but it still seems to have worked very well and to be able to produce some very good work apart.

I think with DM, although apart they’ve still developed the songs together, providing ideas to each other then each developing prior to passing back. In addition, they commenced working on much of the material pre lockdown, so it’s only the finishing and final songs that had to be worked this way.

Yes of course your right, that was the case like you say thinking about it now with it being more the finishing touches to the album,they did all work as the four of them much earlier in the studio recording before the Dave situation as Baz recalled the last time working with Dave as the four of them on his last demo which was White Stallion.So yes your right thanks.

[Rich]

10 is obviously the four members of the classic Stranglers line-up exploring a different avenue of their sound to the one they explored on Rattus, but fundamentally the DNA of the band is recognisable as being the same. Dreamtime is one of their very best albums, IMO.

I get what all parties are saying on this The Stranglers/not The Stranglers in their various incarnations etc. I will keep my counsel.

You mentioned DNA running through from Rattus to 10 - and I agree. So, my question is; Ugly and Golden Brown (released only 4.5 years apart) - where exactly do you see the DNA link there?

Cheers.

Rich.

[8088]

my question is; Ugly and Golden Brown (released only 4.5 years apart) - where exactly do you see the DNA link there?

As JJ had no input on Golden Brown it would be fairer to pitch Ugly against let's say, La Folie.

Regarding the DNA link between the two - there isn't any but if my position was to maintain there was, the 'evidence' would just be subjective takes on the substance of the music and songwriting - reading into it in other words.

[StanInBlack]

where exactly do you see the DNA link there?

In the inherent melodic/rhythmic sense of the members involved and the way those talents combine and coalesce to create the end result. This is what makes the classic Stranglers line-up sound like The Stranglers, and why any other four musicians fulfilling the same roles wouldn't. You change the members, you change the DNA - simple.

[Greatkudu]

I've just read the mojo review, a nice review, as for DNA if you listen to Freedom is Insane, it has the Stranglers DNA in spades minus Hugh, in fact its one of my fave ever Stranglers songs, and with the Cluster Fuck that's Afghanistan now, its become even more Poignant, even though its about Iraq, another cluster fuck, all the good the British did in Afghanistan is now pointless as the new fluffy Taliban are changed people? and im the Pope. Lt Kudu, in turmoil at the tragedy in Afghanistan.

[8088]

I've just read the mojo review, a nice review, as for DNA if you listen to Freedom is Insane, it has the Stranglers DNA in spades minus Hugh, in fact its one of my fave ever Stranglers songs, and with the Cluster Fuck that's Afghanistan now, its become even more Poignant, even though its about Iraq, another cluster fuck, all the good the British did in Afghanistan is now pointless as the new fluffy Taliban are changed people? and im the Pope. Lt Kudu, in turmoil at the tragedy in Afghanistan.

If nothing else, at least Sleepy Joe has been exposed as being utterly unfit for purpose.

[Greatkudu]

I've just read the mojo review, a nice review, as for DNA if you listen to Freedom is Insane, it has the Stranglers DNA in spades minus Hugh, in fact its one of my fave ever Stranglers songs, and with the Cluster Fuck that's Afghanistan now, its become even more Poignant, even though its about Iraq, another cluster fuck, all the good the British did in Afghanistan is now pointless as the new fluffy Taliban are changed people? and im the Pope. Lt Kudu, in turmoil at the tragedy in Afghanistan.

If nothing else, at least Sleepy Joe has been exposed as being utterly unfit for purpose.

I won't bore you, but I think JJ summed it up in the new interview, you can't impose western democracy on a country that never had it, Britain was defeated in the Afghan war of 1880 at Maiwand, the Russians and now the Americans and British again, they need to learn from history and stop trying to impose their will on a country run by tribal clans. Sorry to bore you and go on to much, I did alot of work In support of the campaign but will stop their. Lt Kudu.

[8088]

I won't bore you, but I think JJ summed it up in the new interview, you can't impose western democracy on a country that never had it, Britain was defeated in the Afghan war of 1880 at Maiwand, the Russians and now the Americans and British again, they need to learn from history and stop trying to impose their will on a country run by tribal clans. Sorry to bore you and go on to much, I did alot of work In support of the campaign but will stop their. Lt Kudu.

Not bored at all - nice to hear from someone who knows the history - and yes, forcing cultures to prematurely 'evolve' is too much.

Of course, we have some previous Stranglers crossover with Afghanistan on Vladimir And The Beast.